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February 15, 2010

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zero

our government, if they don't prosecute any of the bush dudes, starting with bush and cheney, are complicit in these crimes. i do not want that to happen in my name. i strongly object to the obama justice department not only NOT going after this but blocking all efforts to hold them accountable.

Doug

Zero, Obama is ignoring the same constitutional limitations that the Bush Administration ignored. No waterboarding (that we know of), but same unconstitutional policies.

Both are warmongers.

zero

yes, and that's the main reason they won't go after bush/cheney, et al. i strongly object to that as well. NOT IN MY NAME!!

Doug

Zero, with all of the proof you yourself have given that government is corrupt, why do you put so much stock in its ability to do good things for the people? You seem like such a candidate for the same sentiments I have about government, because you constantly point out corruption within it. What gives?

chuck

Simple, Doug, a balance of power amongst evils that become more evil when not counter balanced. In addition, there is the lesser of evils argument, from great transparency.

david beasley

Let's supporrt our soldiers who are just doing their duty and who have absolution for any wrong doings by one and all in the fight for right or wrong wars of OUR nation USA and NATO.

NYT today reports of the humanitarian offerings to the Afghani dead, dying, suffering, maimed.
"After the Marines saw children stream out of the ruined house, the company commander immediately ordered a cease-fire. With Taliban snipers still trying to pick them off, his men raced across the flat, open expanse between their positions and the house, where medics rendered what first aid they could."

"They initially counted 11 dead, because one woman was still alive. Marine Corps medics worked to stabilize her condition, although she had lost three limbs. A helicopter came in to evacuate the wounded, but took so much Taliban ground fire that it had to lift off again before the wounded could be loaded on board. The woman died, making the death toll 12."
Cheney is right about the WMD being in those mud homes where the simple doors are kicked opened to expose the global threatening munition cache. Sleep well America USA. Lord Cheney reigns.

david beasley

I think the taliban in the mud house (the mud house holding WMD and 1000 Taliban)... the Taliban whose mud house the USA American soldiers absolved of any wrong doing Marines, USA Marines, shot a really really big bullet at and shot straight and true at and was on target at BUT the insidious Taliban in that WMD housing mud house stuck up a shield and richoceted that big big bullet which went by report of the honest John military reporter... that richoceted bullet off the Taliban shield went 100 yards away from the intended target and struck and killed children and women probably closely related to Afghani men who may or may not have been 100 yards away in another house whom were being saved by the Marines with the big big bullet intended for teh men who were probably firing little bullets at... (?) at the saviors of their country."With Taliban snipers still trying to pick them off, his men raced across the flat, open expanse between their positions and the house, where medics rendered what first aid they could." Damn them heros are something else, are they not? They are who keep me and mine safe from them. Lord Cheney reigns.

zero

besides what mr loopy offers, there is and has been evidence all over the planet of governments actually performing in such a way that really does help citizens. there's been glimpses of it in this nation. there needs to be more; that needs to be more powerful than wealth.

he does indeed, david. to my consternation.

david beasley

Cheney's followers, wealth and power seekers and the poor who follow in adulation of wealth and power models, sing victory and lament in vengeance:
Psalm 137:9/11

"Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!"

We heard it in President Andrew Jackson's time too. And others. No good.

Doug

Zero: "there's been glimpses of it in this nation."

Nothing is "pure evil" in a pragmatic sense. Even my anti-government rhetoric has to admit that "good things can come from government." Even depots can accomplish things that aren't wrong.

But the question isn't whether or not government CAN possible do good for somebody, but if good is going to be done for others, ought it to be done by the institution whose only mechanism for action is coercion and violence? That doesn't sound very ethical to me. In my opinion, it ought to be done by people, not institutions who have the largest amount of guns to tell others to "do good."

zero

it seems you want no government at all. what would you propose in place of government? every man for himself, whatever chaos that creates?

david beasley


"...the institution whose only mechanism for action is coercion and violence?"

Doug,
seems that there is a balance to that "institution"! The Christian church! Hmmm? One might think about that.
But,
Moral atheists (and even cold and lukewarm Christians in the eyes of "the [hot]church") I know do good for the sake of good and hate compromise with evil and do not compromise easily if at all. While rationalist Chritians rationalize Christ right out of the picture and figure out ways to do what government institutions best with a smile and a handshake and even as bedmates... as the flock is protected by Lord Cheney and such.
"Noah's great rainbow" (to quote Dylan's Desolation Row) got turned upside down into a frowny face as the generations proceeded into more and more evil til 2010+, you know? And as Jesus said, "Only the Father knows when the slate will be wiped clean."

Doug

Zero, I'm not for the absence of governance. Government is a singular application of social order, and when it evolves into a State that has absolute power over the lives of its subjects (mistakenly called "citizens"), I find that unethical.

Try reading Butler Shaffer's "Boundaries of Order" (free PDF if you google it) or Robert Murphy's "Chaos Theory" (free PDF as well). Chaos Theory is also available as a free audiobook on iTunes. Chaos Theory is two essays on market anarchy that at least serves to stimulate the imagination as to how a peaceful society could work. It's not an "ideological" bent, but a theoretical possibility.

By the way, "anarchy" is not chaos but order without control.

zero

then it is the intentions and motives of those involved in running government that is faulty? and the impediment to good government? as early as thomas jefferson there were warning of the elite, wealthy in this nation "running" the show with the government firmly in tow. that means this nation has been held hostage since the very beginning. that does not for good government make on behalf of the people.

david beasley

A peaceful society possibilities is addressed in the judeo christian book of Ecclesiastes comment about all is vanity under the sun etc. William Penn had a good idea about the peacable kingdom but it went awry. Maybe if America had stayed with Britain we could be like Canada today. Who knows?

zero

unfortunately, canada is becoming more like the u.s. they have a "conservative" streak going now and if you dig you'll find they have always had the essence of the worst of america, as in how they treated the indigenous populations. actually, it has nothing to do with what goes on within borders but what is within hearts.

Doug

David, you may indeed be accurate in your thought experiment of not seceding from Britain. I wonder how things would be. But then again, we'd have a different set of problems we'd all be debating.

Zero, you are correct that it has to do with the human hearts, which is why political solutions can only go so far, and more often than not are like trying to add more patchwork to a torn fabric, when in reality the fabric itself needs to be replaced.

david beasley

We might be living under a divine curse for declaring our divinely chosen overlord, King George, not. All sorts of considerations, possibilities of confusion under the sun.

SO who does have the near best of things near the heart within borders. Any exemplary country whatsoever to you guys?

Doug

David, i'm not sure I understand your question.

zero

probably not countries, david, but societies. a lot of indigenous persons who MUST cooperate in order to merely live have systems in place that ensure that all do well. these systems are based on helping each other and NOT on making money, on getting "ahead", which really means step on someone else to get what you want, or having stuff. their systems are NOT based on an economy but cooperation. one could argue that hasn't as much to do about hearts as it does with environment, however, i would posit that without all the system this country has, they are a lot better off overall. it's very frustrating to me that people in a developed country like the u.s. is thought of an economy as if that's something that's above, separate, a part from what a country is. a country is a collection of persons who live in the same place, and, hopefully, all working for the good of that country's health and welfare. that can't happen in our system because it's not about hearts, "it's about i want mine, i can't worry about you". is that the people? no, it's the system that was in place before this was america and continued after we were "free". nothing changed except who owned the country.

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