Hypocrisy

    So, if MoveOn says a general has acted in a way that betrays the trust, it's above the pale, but if Faux News does, it's okay?

Comments

[Kate]

I think I'm entering another of my political funks. I cannot understand why so many of the right-wing in the Congress, the administration and the media get away with such obvious partisanship. And they do it all while accusing the democrats of the same thing. That they say such things is not suprising to me; the fact that it has no affect on the people of this country is shocking.

[Jeff]

The Leftists in congress are heavily invested in defeat and have declared this war as lost several times over. Some insist on drawing the artificial distinction between Iraq and the Global War on Terror.

Even if we insist that Iraq is only about U.S. Imperialism and Oil, our enemies have repeatedly identified Iraq as the Central Battlefront in their Holy War.

Find it curious that Right Wingers in Congress working to support the troops and protect american lives is considered partisan, yet a Leftist senator wasting valuable time and railing against a talkshow host's free speech rights because it conflicts with his partisan agenda is somehow considered even handed. Guess it depends on your point of view.

The silent majority is watching the lame efforts of this Congress and it is reflected by abysmal congressional approval numbers and failing interest in evening news programs.

Some view Fox News as twisted because they dare to present both sides of an issue, instead of parroting the Leftward leaning opinion journalism we have been force fed since the 60's.

[Kate]

I'd say the point is that both sides do it but the right continues to insist that they don't. Case in point: How much time did the right waste on the Moveon.org ad? In my opinion, the Rush Limbaugh thing should be dropped also.

What's your definition of "Support the Troops"?

[Jeff]

I think back to the Crusades and the last time the Muslim world attempted to subdue other world powers with the sword. Convert or Die was the message and our forefathers banded together to counter the threat.

A more recent example was the appeasement that allowed Hitler’s forces to expand and grow in power, nearly overwhelming the whole of Europe. Many nations banded together to rise up against the threat and protect national sovereignty.

There are numerous other examples of nations banding together through history to fight against a common threat. The threat has morphed over the years and I believe the current War against IslamoTerrorists working to establish a world-wide Islamist state (Caliphate) is a valid threat.

The terrorist acts in a multitude of countries were largely ignored until 911. Many believed that backing away from the threat and avoiding actions offensive to Muslims prevented future attacks. I was shocked to hear about a pattern of weekend riots in France that destroyed and set fire to 1300 cars and trucks each weekend. I believe the Press blamed the activity on disgruntled Muslim youth. We call them terrorists.

Our actions in the Middle East have drawn terrorists worldwide to determine the fate of the world. The enemy is ruthless and determined. They hide among innocents and think nothing of taking innocent life. I would like our troops to come home as soon as possible, but I don’t want them followed by enemies bent on attacking innocent civilians in a campaign of terror.

Historically, American citizens banded together to support war efforts (i.e.; Rosie the riveter on the assembly lines or Cub Scouts collecting scrap metal to support the war effort). The population, the Press and Congress were generally supportive of the troops and the war effort. Politics stopped at the water’s edge and the troops could depend on hometown support of their efforts.

That all changed during the Viet Nam era with protests and vocal opposition expressed in numerous venues with protesters yelling and spitting at the returning troops. Many groups worked contrary to the objectives of the troops and we failed to protect the Viet Nam people from the coming invasion.

I would like to see the troops come home but I believe in their cause and support the mission. By contrast, Harry Reid has declared the President a “Loser” and the effort as “Lost” and Congress has worked to draft 55 non-binding resolutions condemning the Iraq war effort.

I understand the troops are working to protect my fellow Americans from the gathering threat and I value their efforts.

[DB]

My .03 worth:
Odd, to me, that England, a world power guilty of dominating many Eastern lands by military power for commerce only was so lifted up by the peoples of the world who fought all Hitler's Germany. Look to Africa and her native peoples concerning European domination/slave trade and they got upset with Hitler's Germany??? To say America was "right" in her many and various wars needs examination.

[Jeff]

Believe the same oppressive forces led several groups to journey across the Atlantic ocean in search of freedom. This quest for freedom is built into the foundation of our country.

While history is filled with events both good and bad, must your history be absolutely clean in order to make "right and good" decisions today?

[zero]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larisa-alexandrovna/our-cold-civil-war_b_67383.html

rather lengthly but great thinking involving the moveon.org ad and the war. you'll be surprised WHICH war!

[Jeff]

Was lengthy but I missed the great thinking part. More of the same contention that anything supporting the war effort must be dishonest or hiding a more sinister objective or sleazy defense contractor.

Also a little tinge of the wives tale that the 2000 election was stolen by the Supreme Court. They voted to stop a process that was changing the rules after the fact and selectively adding votes to close the voting margin with each recount. Regardless, several groups have performed recounts and none has found sufficient votes to throw the election to Al Gore.

This seemed to be a very slanted article that was hard to follow. When the Head of the American Military reports to Congress, I don't assume he is a liar or a shill for the President.

Fox News reports the facts and leaves it to the viewer to form opinions, which explains the growing popularity. People don't like being told what to think (i.e; ABC, CBS and NBC).

[DB]

Jeff,
I'd like to hear your opinion of the statements in the book Rogue State by William Blum... maybe you could get one at a library and give it a read. He is an old fashion investigative reporter who has some pretty incriminating documentation concerning America's ethical behavior in the election between Gore and Bush and also some stuff about America in wars and CIA undercover work.

[zero]

a wives' tale? a supreme court justice considered resigning after that political vote that put bush into the white house. in all these years, i have never referred to him as president because he isn't and never has been. for someone not duly elected to office, he's done a whale of a lot of damage. he once said reagan was his hero and he wanted to be like him. he, to my chagrin, far exceeded his own expectations. the difference between a true patriot and a hollow one is a true patriot will stand up to wrong for the betterment of the nation; even if that wrong was committed by someone that patriot supported. a hollow one puts on blinders and critizes one who speaks out.

[Kate]

Quickly, "support the troops" means to separate the soldier doing his job from the policy giving him his orders. This was the lesson learned from Vietnam. It does not mean, support of the war or the mission. In other words, one can appreciate a soldier who is doing his job at great personal risk without believing this war was neccessary.

[zero]

amen! sister kate. you tell 'em!!!!

[Jeff]

Hence, the great divide. I believe the troops and their current mission are necessary for our survival. You apparently don’t.

Our forces are well trained and very capable of eliminating threats. Where they fall down is in situations where the Rules of Engagement are stupid. This conflict has dragged on due to our role as peacekeepers and rules limiting our troops. The bad guys can blow up a village then run back to the Mosque to reload. We are not allowed to follow and only allowed to shoot after being shot at. The surge is working because we scrubbed some of these politically sensitive rules and allowed our troops to do their jobs. Any Mosque that is also an armory should be quickly flattened.

Unlike the enemy, we do not take great pride in killing innocent civilians. Accidents can happen in a chaotic battle, but we do not plan in advance to bomb a marketplace to maximize casualties and then set another trap for anyone coming to help the victims.

I am not conflicted. I don’t have to walk the fine line, pretending to appreciate the troops while slamming each and every story reported from Iraq as a worthless and unnecessary waste of lives and treasure. I don’t have to explain how “Al Queda in Iraq” and “Al Queda in Afghanistan” are completely independent, even when Al Queda leadership does not believe so.

I am disgusted when I hear about Harry Reid referring to the President as a “Loser” during a talk with school children and proclaiming this war “Lost” on the Senate floor. I see this as political wishful thinking and ridiculous acts of disrespect.

I want this conflict finished, but I don’t want market bombings and beheadings in places like Los Angeles, Detroit, Jacksonville and St. Louis. Even while distasteful, Iraq has become an international magnet for terrorist scum and I want them to fight and die for their cause over there, not here.

[Jeff]

Regarding "Rogue State", I enjoy a good read as long as the facts can be verified. I'll see if they have it at my library. Some of the 911 Conspiracy stuff was pure science fiction.

[zero]

jeff, your post isn't even worth the effort to comment. you keep on keeping on and good luck to you.

[Kate]

Please don't assume what I do and don't believe. There's a little trick that is popular right now in public discourse. If someone doesn't agree with you, paint them as anti-whatever or conflicted. Supporting the Troops but not the mission is not a conflict. It's very simple. The mission is flawed, whether you believe it was for all the right reasons or not. The troops are adapting to the situation on the ground and the people planning the missions are not. That little bit of truth is pretty clear. Many of the planners and leaders have never seen combat of any kind. That means they need to be listening to the folks on the ground.

The "you" that you adress in your comment, I not sure if that is directed at anyone of us in particular or people that don't agree with you in general. Just know that even if I don't agree with everything you say, I respect the fact that you are giving much thought to this issue. I hope that you are commenting here in the same spirit.

[zero]

ah, katie! ye are a better man than i!

[Kate]

Not at all zero.

:@) :@) :@)
piggies to ya!

[zero]

thank you, kate. made my day!!! i love the piggies!

[zero]

so al gore wins the nobel peace prize. as he continues to rack up the awards, let's review....

george bush has, with his cabel, ruined this nation at home and abroad. al gore rises above his 2000 victory being snatched by a political supreme court and contributes much at home and abroad.

no doubt al gore wouldn't have been perfect as president but he certainly wouldn't have left the trail of destruction the occupier of the white house had.

the poll results i want to read are how many citizens are sorry bush got in the white house instead of gore and, if given a do-over, would vote for gore instead of bush.

[zero]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-10-10-christians-young_N.htm

an interesting new book regarding what the youth of today think of christianity.

http://www.catholics-united.org/schip-ads

going after "prolifers" for not supporting schip for kids. delicious!

[zero]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rick-jacobs/karl-rove-in-oslo-demand_b_68190.html

this guy said it better than i did about al gore.

[DB]

Another American General speaks but read the last paragraph here from the Bushites:

Ex-General: 'No End in Sight' in Iraq
By STEVEN KOMAROW (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
October 13, 2007 9:13 AM EDT
ARLINGTON, Va. - The U.S. mission in Iraq is a "nightmare with no end in sight" because of political misjudgments after the fall of Saddam Hussein that continue today, a former chief of U.S.-led forces said Friday.

Retired Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, who commanded coalition troops for a year beginning June 2003, cast a wide net of blame for both political and military shortcomings in Iraq that helped open the way for the insurgency - such as disbanding the Saddam-era military and failing to cement ties with tribal leaders and quickly establish civilian government after Saddam was toppled.

He called current strategies - including the deployment of 30,000 additional forces earlier this year - a "desperate attempt" to make up for years of misguided policies in Iraq.

"There is no question that America is living a nightmare with no end in sight," Sanchez told a group of journalists covering military affairs.

Sanchez avoided singling out at any specific official. But he did criticize the State Department, the National Security Council, Congress and the senior military leadership during what appeared to be a broad indictment of White House policies and a lack of leadership to oppose them.

Such assessments - even by former Pentagon brass - are not new, but they have added resonance as debates over war strategy dominate the presidential campaign.

The Bush administration didn't directly address Sanchez's critical views.

"We appreciate his service to the country," said White House spokesman Trey Bohn. He added that as U.S. commander in Iraq Gen. David Petraeus and U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker have said: "There is more work to be done, but progress is being made in Iraq and that's what we're focused on now."

[zero]

while everyone is cheering over this dude saying it's no good in iraq, they are losing sight of his entire statement. it was replayed on cspan last night and i listened very carefully. even though he said it was a mess he also said, "pulling out would make a bigger mess" so he's not so much the hero. he's still towing the party line. the military was ruined the day they adopted the "business" model of operating (this perspective from a military dude who would know) because now it's about advancement and cya. rats.
how many more iraqs to come?

[DB]

How many more Iraqs to come? As many as stand in the way of the politicians who command world dominating military power which caters to the people who control the wealth of the world's resources... meant according to Xtian Scripture for "all" yet only a few grab it and abuse it and bring "all" towards curse rather than blessing in this world praying for heaven on earth with vain words.