Ted Haggard

    Well, with the reports coming in this morning, it looks as if some part of the allegations are likely to be true.  Who knows what to make of all this, except this we do know, we are called to pray for Haggard and, especially, his family.  I have found some comments worth our reflection.  First, from David Kuo and then, from Andrew Sullivan.  Andrew writes from his own experiences, which seems to make his comments all the more poignant.  Finally, from the Christian Post.  I'd be interested in your comments on the subject.

Comments

[zero]

where to begin!?

let's pray for this guy? ok, i'm for that. but it begs the question. who was praying for gays in this crowd when gays were those horrible facets of life out to destroy the very fabric of our existence?
it's like when rush limbaugh was "throw druggies under the jail" til rush was found to be a druggie and then it was "poor rush. he needs help!". it seems that the christian conservative right is very selective in whom they are willing to help or pray for.

as for kuo saying this shouldn't be made political or be political cause it hurts jesus is bogus. the very persons purporting to be all jesus all the time, making everything completely political, are the ones who have hurt jesus!

as an aside, i was struck by the some of the advertisemments on kuo's website.

further, if this example (as so many others have revealed themselves over time in the past), isn't enough for people to SHUT UP about individual, private behavior, i don't know what would. rant all one would like over sex, drugs, abortion, anything, it can't be dictated. those who try and then are found to be the very culprit they are ranting against, demeans and completely wipes out any argument against.

used the shift key, jerry! =]

[chuck]

What did you think of Andrew's comments, which seemed to run similar to yours, zero?

[zero]

i did read sullivan and didn't mention his comments specifically but do agree that what i said is in line with him. really, he's correct. this has got to stop. or all credibility is gone and more and more people are harmed. can't we all just get along, as rodney king asks? and see how it all changes once someone is found to be not who they were purported to be? this ted is still himself but no longer who he is. and that's sad.

[jerry]

Zero: I see you reserve that key for really important uses :@)

[Brad Anderson]

I think Sullivan's comments are a bit premature, at best, especially wiht the latest in mind. Of course, we could find out otherwise, but I still think Sullivan's ahead of things at the moment.

[zero]

but hypocrisy is always to the fore, brad. and that's the most crucial component in all these revelations.

impact, jerry, impact.

[Kate]

When is Rev. Phelps coming out of the closet?

[Brad Anderson]

I agree, zero, and certainly I have problems with Haggard in other areas. But because we don't know that there was any sexual activity yet (see the latest updates), we don't know that the hypocrisy was of the form being charged. That's why we need to just wait a bit.

[Matthew Purmort]

Hey Chuck,

The first peice spoke a lot about us being sinners and in need of forgiveness, tue enough, but what about holiness and acountability. I don't know if the guy is a Christian, but its interesting how evangelicals seem to forgive or (excuse) their neighbor's sin before their enemy's. If Haggard was a prominent Democrat what would the comments be? Just a thought. Sullivan's arguement is ineteresting though it seems he is jumping to a lot of conclusions with out a lot of sound evidence just yet.

[zero]

we can wait, brad. no worries there. but if this incident is true to form in how these circumstances unfold, we'll be learning more than we ever wanted to know about ted's activities.

exactly, matthew.

which one is phelps, kate?

[Kate]

zero, I could send you to his web site but I'll spare you that. Here's his wikipedia page:

http://imitatiochristi.blogs.com/imitatio_christi/2006/11/ted_haggard.html#comments

[evagrius]

I think the late, great Billie Holiday said it best, " T'Ain't Nobody's Business If I Do".

Why there is this fixation on sins of the flesh in the U.S. puzzles me. After all, it's just our carnality and it's a weakness we all suffer from. Jesus never seems to have paid much attention to it. He seems to have spent His time preaching about sins of the spirit or sins against charity.

After all, Matthew 25, ( my favorite apocalypse- because it's the most frightening), is all about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, visiting prisoners and so forth.

Nary a word about homosexuals etc;

[Kate]

Whoops, try, try again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

[zero]

agreed, evagrius. if we paid attention to what really mattered, life on this planet would be greatly enhanced. (however, that would mean some would lose power.
how to get the masses to give up following the few!) the passage you cite is powerful. how is it that christian leaders spend so little to no time impressing this upon the faithful?

thanks, kate!
what a guy!

[chuck]

Thanks to all for the comments. I am not sure if Andrew is ahead or behind. He is a Catholic fellow who is openly gay, but otherwise rather conservative. I was not so much interested in your thoughts about his being right or wrong about Haggard's guilt, but his observations about the mental mechanisms at play. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.

[tc]

I would say that it is a tragedy. I wouldn't be so quick to condemn like Andrew Sullivan. I am more inclined to forgive like Jesus taught us.

I don't know who to believe on the issue, but do agree that if not for the political factor in the equation this wouldn't be national news. It would be a personal church matter to deal with appropriately. I do like it that at least the church has an outside review board to look into the matter from a Christian perspective. This can be an issue with mega-churches that do not have any denomination overlooking them.

I am a Presbyterian and one thing I do like about the denomination is the fact that it has a "judicial" process in place to deal with such matters. It is a connected church, that also doesn't rely on a hierachy that may want to cover things up more than get at the root of the issue.

One of the things that my pastor speaks of often is accountability and having a fellow male (in his case a couple of pastor friends not associated with the local church) that he is accountable to. I saw this in my previous church where the pastor was not necessarily doing anything out-of-bounds, but did spend and over-abundance of time with young teenage girls (giving them vocal training, counseling, etc), to the detriment of his marriage. He doesn't have an accountability pastor that will tell him to knock it off. For his actions are just one step away from going the next step.

I think the problem with the national mega-pastors are that they get too wrapped up in the power and glory that they forget about accountability. One of the things, we as Christians can do, just like we have done with regards to financial matters of the church, is promote accountability for our leaders, whether lay or ordained. They need support just as much as the person in the congregation. If they don't have the accountability, then they can take the little steps that lead to bigger steps, that then lead to sin and ruin.

It is unfortunate that Ted did not have that accountability that truly helped him with his struggles. It is also unfortunate that he sought the power and glory of politics instead of keeping his focus on bringing people to Christ. He has brought a lot of people to know our Lord. I am sure the Lord is saddened, but will forgive, and so too, I am saddened, but also must forgive.

[zero]

chuck, what does, "he is a catholic fellow who is openly gay, but otherwise rather conservative" mean?

[chuck]

Good words, tc. I don't think, however, that Sullivan was as much being critical as he was speaking out of the pain of his own experiences. Also, I'd like to suggest that, by becoming active in the political process, then these things become political events. Right now, I can't imagine the anguish this circumstance was created for his family, and for Ted, himself. What a remarkable opportunity to model graciousness, will the church be able?
Zero, Andrew is a "log cabin repub," which basically means he is conservative on economic issues, but more liberal on social issues. He was for the war, but is stunned by the incomptence of the current administration.

[zero]

ok. he was on booktv tonight, a taped program at the 92nd st ymca in nyc, with james mcgreevey, the outed and resigned governor of new jersey. they discussed each other's books and growing up dealing with homosexuality. very interesting. at one point sullivan said he was now more moderate democrat than republican. catch this on reairing.

[chuck]

Yes, he's commented that a lot lately, which suggests,as a friend of mine once said, if we are moderates, it matters less the specific label.

[zero]

yes. lou dobbs was on booktv earlier today and he said he had been a republican for many years. and now he's an independent, an american first! and that no party would hold him again for he couldn't hold parties accountable by being held (my way of stating his thinking, not a quote or paraphase). he was discussing his new book, the war on the middle class.